Ep146: Surpassing the Master - Rupert Spira & Henry Shukman 2
Part 2 of an ongoing dialogue between Rupert Spira and Henry Shukman.
Available on Youtube, iTunes, SoundCloud & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
Rupert Spira is a teacher of the direct path method of Advaita and an internationally acclaimed ceramic artist. Henry Shukman is a Zen teacher and award winning poet and writer.
Rupert and Henry discuss the path of deep training in both art and spirituality, why traditional forms are repositories of generational understanding, and the meaning of spiritual friendship.
Rupert reflects on how art points to truth, and Henry discusses Koan training as a means to stabilise awakening.
Rupert and and Henry also reflect on what it takes to create effective art and why it is vital for the apprentice to surpass the master.
Topics include:
00:00 - Intro
00:47 - Rupert on Henry’s zen memoir
03:46 - Henry on Rupert’s books
06:01 - Evolution of Rupert’s art from ceramics to language
13:00 - Discipline teaches the process of art
15:42 - The student must surpass the teacher
20:06 - Premature teaching vs submission to deep training
25:30 - Henry’s journey as a poet
30:17 - Imitation before innovation
33:57 - Koan training to stabilise awakening
36:48 - Forms of the tradition are the repositories of generations of understanding
39:33 - Key moments in Henry’s koan training
42:48 - 1-1 teaching vs group teaching
49:02 - Are new koans evolving?
52:52 - Rupert and Henry discuss koans
57:18 - What is required of the artist to make effective art?
01:00:26 - What Henry’s art seeks to convey
01:06:38 - Rupert on how art points to truth
01:12:47 - Art of expressing suffering
01:16:05 - The experience of artistic work
01:21:54 - The master’s view
01:24:31 - Rupert and Henry on Steve’s facilitation
01:27:18 - On teaching
Previous dialogue between Spira and Shukman:
- https://www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep131-art-spirituality-rupert-spira-henry-shukman
To find out more about Rupert Spira, visit:
To find out more about Henry Shukman, visit:
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James