Ep201: Revealing Nirodha Samāpatti - Delson Armstrong, Shinzen Young, Chelsey Fasano, & Dr Laukkonen

May 11

I host a dialogue between Delson Armstrong, Shinzen Young, Chelsey Fasano, and Dr Ruben Laukkonen about the rarified meditation state of Niroda Samāpatti.

Available on Youtube, iTunes, SoundCloud & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.

GuruViking · Ep201: Revealing Nirodha Samāpatti - Delson Armstrong, Shinzen Young, Chelsey Fasano, & Dr Laukonnen

Special guests Delson Armstrong and Dr Ruben Laukkonen discuss their latest ground-breaking paper ‘Cessations of consciousness in meditation: Advancing a scientific understanding of nirodha samāpatti’ in which Delson Armstrong’s ability to enter the rarefied state of nirodha samāpatti, a feat of extended cessation achievable by only the most virtuoso meditators, was tested by Dr Laukonnen and Prof. Slatger’s neuroscience team with astonishing results.

They join the ongoing discussion with:

Shinzen Young, meditation teacher and neuroscience research consultant
Chelsey Fasano, a Columbia University neuroscience graduate

Delson and Dr Laukkonen tell the story of their study, how it came to be, the various tests they administered, and why they believe the results are so remarkable.

Delson describes the meditation method he uses to enter into the state of nirodha samāpatti and to stay there for up to seven days, how he can determine in advance to the minute when he will exit the state, and the profound effects on the mind after a period of extended cessation.

Shinzen analyses Delson’s abilities, probes the mathematical models used in the study, and shares his own work creating enlightened AI arhats.

The panel also discuss possible scientific connections between Buddhist doctrines such as the five aggregates, dependent origination, and the 3 Gates of Liberation.

Topics include:

00:00 - Intro
01:37 - Discovering Delson’s nirodha samāpatti abilities
05:21 - Dr Laukkonen’s skepticism
06:48 - Testing Delson in the lab
11:05 - The data analysis and comparison with Harvard lab findings
15:12 - Implications of the decrease in alpha synchronisation
16:47 - Phase lag index
19:08 - Alpha vs gamma frequencies in contemplative neuroscience
20:57 - Delson’s side of the story
23:37 - Rigorous training in ‘jhana hopping’
25:42 - Delson’s account of the lab tests
28:26 - Timing the exit from jhana using meditative intentions
29:45 - Remaining in nirodhia samāpatti for 6 days
30:51 - How many others can do this?
34:02 - How to enter nirodha samāpatti
46:06 - Shinzen analyses Delson’s report
40:05 - Dr Laukkonen comments on the aggregates and meditative intention
42:50 - Possible links to hibernation
47:40 - The 3 Gates of Liberation and Friston’s free energy
53:25 - Predictive processing all the way down
56:55 - Similarities to St Teresa of Ávila’s stages of Catholic meditation
01:01:13 - Delson’s Catholic family and religious syncretism
01:03:24 - Conseqences of nirodhia samāpatti
01:05:34 - Pratītyasamutpāda for arhats
01:09:05 - The ego as a survival mechanism
01:11:31 - Networks and the multiverse
01:13:53 - John Carlos Baez’s mathematics and modelling pratītyasamutpāda
01:22:28 - Creating enlightened AI
01:32:30 - Creating AI arhats and Shinzen’s vision
01:37:49 - Neurofeedback devices for meditation teaching
01:43:02 - Dr Laukkonen challenges tech interventions aimed at inducing enlightenment
01:46:36 - Setting up the sequel