Ep292: Dharma Reunited - Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong 2
In this episode I once again host a dialogue between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong.
Available on Youtube, iTunes, SoundCloud & Spotify – search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
Daniel Ingram is an independent Buddhist writer, author of ‘Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha’, and co-founder of the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium (EPRC).
Delson Armstrong is a spiritual teacher, author of ’A Mind Without Craving’, and founder of the Freedom of Mind foundation.
In episode 136, “Meeting of the Dharmas”, I hosted a dialogue between Daniel and Delson in which they compared their enlightenment claims. At that time, Delson claimed a version of enlightenment that included a permanent freedom from negative emotions such as fear, anger, and desire. Two years later, in episode 280, Delson renounced this and all other claims to spiritual attainment and now Daniel and Delson meet again
Daniel offers his response to Delson’s recent renunciations, warns about the power of self hypnosis, and explains why it is so common for people to revise their enlightenment claims.
Delson considers how it was that he mistook the nature of his spiritual achievements, considers the impact of his renunciation on his practice community and students, and looks ahead to his own future as a teacher and guide.
Daniel and Delson address criticisms they have both received for their revisions of important Buddhist doctrines such as the 4 path model of awakening, comment on gatekeeping and fundamentalism in Buddhism, and consider whether advances in contemplative neuroscience may pose a serious threat to traditional religions and their institutions.
00:00 - Intro
01:51 - The situation
04:36 - Daniel’s response to Delson’s renouncing of claims
07:14 - Early schism in Buddhism
08:20 - Does Daniel feel vindicated?
09:42 - Delson reflects on what he has learned from Daniel
12:34 - The snake has shed its skin
13:29 - Profound but not simple
14:26 - Neurodiversity and the diversity of the spiritual path
16:54 - Hypnotising yourself into believing you’re enlightened
19:17 - How did Delson get his enlightenment wrong?
22:22 - The impact of contact with society
24:13 - A gradual process of changing mind
25:06 - Gatekeeping and fundamentalism in Buddhism
27:35 - Jack Kornfield and Christopher Titmuss
30:51 - Social influence on perceptions of spiritual progress
33:35 - Relationships and karma
35:21 - Oscillation and the World Without Sin
38:43 - Can you ever go back? Spoiling the party
40:38 - Delson on negative reactions from his community
43:57 - How to approach those who are attached to models, experiences, and perfection?
46:17 - Stages of development
47:17 - Leading with vulnerability
48:45 - A different type of practitioner
49:55 - The appeal of Vajrayāna
52:21 - Specific criticisms of Daniel and Delson
54:19 - Why do Daniel and Delson revise Buddhism?
56:43 - Delson on his critics
59:51 - Daniel on transference and counter-transference
01:01:18 - Tantric guru yoga
01:01:47 - When your guru disappoints you
01:02:05 - Daniel on Bhikkhu Anālayo and his other critics
01:02:27 - Neuroscience as a challenge to religious orthodoxy
01:05:34 - Delson on neuroscience
01:06:34 - Will neuroscience destroy Buddhism?
01:10:24 - Praise for the Theravāda
01:11:45 - Theravādan exceptionalism
01:12:37 - Validating or defeating religion?
01:15:43 - Finders’ Course and retrenchment to orthodoxy
01:17:57 - Delson’s thoughts about contemplative neuroscience
01:20:39 - What does Daniel think will next happen to Delson?
01:23:23 - Maturing as a fellow spiritual explorer
01:26:33 - Attachment styles and kalyāṇa-mittatā
01:28:40 - Loss of enthusiasm for practice in advanced practitioners
01:31:18 - Micro-renunciations and disgust for the quest
01:33:42 - When spiritual teachers lose their faith
0135:28 - How Delson keeps his interest in teaching
01:38:20 - Why Daniel decided not to become a teacher
01:40:32 - Delson’s closing remarks
01:40:45 - Daniel’s closing remarks
01:41:04 - Praise for the religious orthodoxy
01:42:21 - Acknowledging critics
01:43:17 - Disagreeing with grace and respect
Previous dialogue between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong:
Watch previous episodes with Daniel Ingram:
Watch previous episodes with Delson Armstrong:
To find out more about Daniel, visit:
To find out more about Delson Armstrong, visit:
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James